Feb 19 16:56:27 --> z3p (n=z3p@c-71-192-42-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 17:02:56 --> Blaketh (i=bsetlow@heron.sccs.swarthmore.edu) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 17:03:31 People here for the sugar-dev meeting ? (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_dev_meeting) Feb 19 17:03:50 hi! Feb 19 17:04:07 hey Feb 19 17:05:36 so what we have on the agenda? Feb 19 17:05:41 anything interesting? Feb 19 17:05:49 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_dev_meeting#Tuesday_February_19_2008 Feb 19 17:06:09 i think the roadmap is not in stone yet Feb 19 17:06:16 oh, the roadmap is quite interesting, although is still in its early stages of formation Feb 19 17:06:20 mostly just some thoughts Feb 19 17:06:50 the idea is to have a high level view of where we are heading for the next months Feb 19 17:06:52 --> Ridderman (n=Ridderma@wwwgate2.motorola.com) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 17:07:06 I guess trac would be more authoritative Feb 19 17:07:18 but we found a bit hard to wade through all the tickets Feb 19 17:07:56 likely we will find tickets already in trac for some of the points Feb 19 17:07:57 I guess now would be a good moment for people to suggest items to be added Feb 19 17:08:31 does anyone have a link to the latest mockups as requested in the road map wiki entry? Feb 19 17:08:39 ChristophD: not yet :/ Feb 19 17:08:55 eben showed them to me while I was at 1CC back in December but I cant remember all the details Feb 19 17:09:15 ChristophD: the designers are showing sugar in the moma in ny are look to be a bit busy Feb 19 17:09:29 s/are/look Feb 19 17:09:45 ack Feb 19 17:09:55 ChristophD: I can describe it if you want ;) Feb 19 17:10:07 basically: Feb 19 17:10:14 - move the devices to the bottom frame Feb 19 17:10:18 tomeu: thx, much appreciated :) Feb 19 17:10:31 - move the activity launcher to the home view (where today is the donut) Feb 19 17:10:54 - show next to the zoom levels (top frame) the active activities Feb 19 17:11:27 - add a list view to the home view, so installed activities can be seen in both ways Feb 19 17:11:58 the activity list view would be something journal-like and the home view would display a ring of activity launchers Feb 19 17:12:12 what about the network and friend view? IIRC ivan krstic mentioned something about them also going to be re-designed soon... Feb 19 17:12:34 yeah, but that hasn't been given so much priority Feb 19 17:12:49 ok Feb 19 17:12:56 the friends view is supposed to be a groups view, where you can create new groups with different people on each Feb 19 17:12:59 any timeframe for those changes that you're mentioning? Feb 19 17:13:10 ChristophD: u2, last I heard Feb 19 17:13:16 I'm working on that these days Feb 19 17:13:49 certainly, an image would be worth a thousand words... Feb 19 17:14:08 yeah, but your describtion made some of those images come back into my head ;) Feb 19 17:14:24 this is not very different to what we have now Feb 19 17:14:34 just moving some components from one place to another Feb 19 17:14:39 plus adding the list view Feb 19 17:14:43 yeppa Feb 19 17:14:51 all this will allow us to do some interesting things later Feb 19 17:15:05 that list view is a must, the current toolbar for the activities will crap out once 30 or so activities are installed on a laptop Feb 19 17:15:13 yup Feb 19 17:15:34 is also quite bad when you have different versions of the same activity Feb 19 17:15:43 would be cool to have some sort of tagging or grouping mechanism where you can declare an activity to be a game, online-stuff, multimedia or school related Feb 19 17:15:49 the list view will have search, too Feb 19 17:15:57 great Feb 19 17:16:04 yeah, this has been in the plans since the beginning Feb 19 17:16:23 out of curiosity: any relevant feedback for sugar coming from uruguay, peru or mongolia these days? Feb 19 17:16:34 haven't seen it exposed in any place in the last mockups, though Feb 19 17:16:54 ChristophD: not yet, walter is in peru and he has promised some feedback Feb 19 17:17:03 ChristophD: people are focusing more on the network right now Feb 19 17:17:12 I figure that;-) Feb 19 17:17:15 then will come backups and school server Feb 19 17:17:27 and then will come sugar and usability issues, I hope ;) Feb 19 17:17:34 hehe Feb 19 17:17:47 ChristophD: btw, are you going to fosdem? Feb 19 17:18:02 ChristophD: the only thing that will probably make it short term in response to Peru is a UI for the control panel Feb 19 17:18:10 unfortunately no, too busy... but will be at the chemnitzer linuxtage and cebit the week after fosdem Feb 19 17:18:22 OLPC Austria has a booth at the LinuxPark at cebit Feb 19 17:18:43 erikos: I'm working on a GUI for sugar-control-panel as I speak ;-) Feb 19 17:19:09 http://asset.soup.io/asset/0032/6636_7e0b_420.png Feb 19 17:19:29 ooooh :) Feb 19 17:19:33 looks like crap atm but I'm working on it as part of our activityprogramming handbook Feb 19 17:19:56 ChristophD: as an example activity? Feb 19 17:20:00 --> erikos_ (n=erikos@hlle-4db9ba6a.pool.einsundeins.de) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 17:20:03 hope to find some spare time this week or next weekend to finish it up Feb 19 17:20:07 exactly Feb 19 17:20:37 I realized I know way too little about pygtk so I sat down and started writing this since some g1g1 users are bound to find this useful, I hope ;-) Feb 19 17:20:48 then we'll move on to the journal Feb 19 17:21:04 ChristophD: i wanted to get eben's input on his design ideas for the control-panel Feb 19 17:21:11 will probably develop a simple image viewer ala acdsee, with enhanced features through each chapter Feb 19 17:21:31 ChristophD: do you have some code yet? Feb 19 17:21:49 erikos_: so far only changing the name works Feb 19 17:22:05 erikos_: network status is giving some headache, don't know what I'm missing Feb 19 17:22:24 ChristophD: in the control panel? Feb 19 17:22:28 but can send you the current version as an .xo file, or better yet upload it to the wiki, what do you think? Feb 19 17:22:39 erikos_: yes Feb 19 17:23:08 ChristophD: do you have a shell acount? Feb 19 17:23:19 ChristophD: you could upload it there if Feb 19 17:23:35 I'm sure eben and you guys can hack something like that GUI in no-time and it will undoubtably look much better than what I'm doing but I just started it as a fun project, more for myself and the handbook than for anything else Feb 19 17:23:40 nope, no shell account Feb 19 17:23:57 ChristophD: you are doing the handbook? Feb 19 17:24:14 erikos_: yes, me and daniel and helga from olpc austria Feb 19 17:24:50 ChristophD: interesting - because i try to do a bit of doku for Browse at the moment Feb 19 17:25:05 erikos_: cool Feb 19 17:25:21 ChristophD: otherwise you can send it or load it up on the wiki sure - appreciated Feb 19 17:25:27 erikos_: I feel like documentation side hasnt received the attention it should be getting Feb 19 17:25:41 ChristophD: yeah i know :/ Feb 19 17:25:44 yup Feb 19 17:25:57 erikos_: but I did notice that that job for "documentation lead" that was on laptop.org has gone, so is there now a person responsible for documentation at 1cc? Feb 19 17:25:58 _sj|cc_: around? Feb 19 17:26:14 ChristophD: what is the latest issue/version for the handbook, where can i have a look Feb 19 17:26:21 ChristophD: don't know about that :/ Feb 19 17:26:48 erikos_: http://www.olpcaustria.org/mediawiki/index.php/Activity_handbook Feb 19 17:26:48 ChristophD: so i can write the stuff for Browse as possible as to be included Feb 19 17:26:52 but thats not quite the latest status Feb 19 17:27:00 having some issues with out docbook files atm Feb 19 17:27:13 erikos_: absolutely! Feb 19 17:27:36 the mission statement of the handbook is "The purpose of the activity handbook is to provide you with all the information you need in order to get started with software development for the OLPC XO." Feb 19 17:27:49 we basically want to lower the barrier to entry for motivated programmers Feb 19 17:28:35 ChristophD: cool - good effort Feb 19 17:28:49 something else that I had in mind, but which is out of the scope of the handbook, is to have some real guidelines in terms of sugar. the [[HIG]] is more of a high level thing, i want to see more details on how the GUI should be designed Feb 19 17:29:23 what things to avoid, what has proven to work, etc. Feb 19 17:29:39 otherwise we're going to end up with a huge mess IMHO Feb 19 17:30:17 yeah that is right - maybe after we did the work for U2 or while doing so Feb 19 17:30:41 erikos_: sorry if that's a stupid question, but what exactly does "u2" stand for?? Feb 19 17:31:01 ChristophD: U2 - a rock band :) Feb 19 17:31:09 haha Feb 19 17:31:15 U2 = update.2 the milestone Feb 19 17:31:23 ack, thx Feb 19 17:32:04 http://dev.laptop.org/milestone/Update.2 Feb 19 17:32:11 just looking at it;) Feb 19 17:33:11 ChristophD: will note your doku/efforts in the meetings summary Feb 19 17:33:19 anything else about the roadmap? Feb 19 17:33:31 I think what we should try to do in terms of mid- to long-term sugar and related developments is to focus on a couple of things for each release and also communicate that via the wiki, mailing list, etc. Feb 19 17:34:25 UI for updates: whats hapenning there? Feb 19 17:34:50 <-- isforinsects has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]") Feb 19 17:35:25 sure, we want to communicate better - that is why we redo the meeting now as well Feb 19 17:35:28 --> daja77 (n=daja77@85.127.114.244) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 17:35:58 hello daniel :) Feb 19 17:36:25 'UI for updates' is part of the mail from cjb http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-February/011050.html Feb 19 17:36:46 i picked it up because i thought we probably want to discuss it here Feb 19 17:36:53 but cjb seems not to be around Feb 19 17:36:54 <-- erikos has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 19 17:36:56 hi christoph Feb 19 17:37:16 erikos_: ok, thanks for the info Feb 19 17:38:02 erikos_: I'm here Feb 19 17:38:14 cjb: terrific :) Feb 19 17:38:14 I'm glad people saw that list Feb 19 17:38:24 because we should chat about what's useful and what we want to do Feb 19 17:38:33 yup Feb 19 17:38:33 yup Feb 19 17:38:36 but don't think of it as direct feature requests from the field or anything :) Feb 19 17:38:57 :) Feb 19 17:39:05 cjb: we would love to get more feedback from the field :/ Feb 19 17:39:11 it's great that bemasc is doing the Distribute activity, that was a big gap I saw with disconnected mesh work Feb 19 17:39:14 tomeu: me too :) Feb 19 17:39:28 so the first point that comes up often is: distribute/share activity Feb 19 17:39:33 cjb: you may get invaded my sugarites next week, btw Feb 19 17:39:37 yeppa, distribute.xo will be a cool utility Feb 19 17:39:50 tomeu: yup, is great. Feb 19 17:40:11 the other thing I'd be interested in is a Message Board activity for each class/school Feb 19 17:40:24 cjb: being async? Feb 19 17:40:28 but maybe that can just be a webpage on the school server if they have one, even if it doesn't have an external network Feb 19 17:40:38 but if they don't have one, then it gets more difficult :) Feb 19 17:40:49 cjb: yeah, an school server makes most sharing use cases much simpler Feb 19 17:41:09 I think we're still negotiating with Peru on how many school servers they'll buy Feb 19 17:41:35 cjb: yeah an activity might be the thing that fits most cases - without server or Internet connection Feb 19 17:41:51 but more importantly, even the schools that have a school server won't usually have net access Feb 19 17:42:22 cjb: but a local moodle server could be enough Feb 19 17:42:36 so each class has its sharing space, etc Feb 19 17:42:38 hence the concentration on sneakernet ideas in my mail. I think the idea is that teachers go into the main cities to get their paychecks and get new bits on a USB disk, so they could hand off a USB disk with batched data at the same time. Anyway, it's just an idea. Everything's so vague. :/ Feb 19 17:42:40 cjb: so what did you have in mind? some cut-down standalone wiki of sorts? Feb 19 17:43:15 ChristophD: some way of providing a persistent message board without a school server might be nice. Feb 19 17:43:44 for example, every laptop could broadcast every message board note it's seen Feb 19 17:43:46 cjb, wouldnt a single USB stick for the teacher with a portable mediawiki be enough? Feb 19 17:43:53 and the activity could know to collate them and remove duplicates Feb 19 17:44:20 ChristophD: hm, but that works on IP, rather than using stream tubes Feb 19 17:44:48 portable mediawiki? Feb 19 17:44:48 cjb, good point Feb 19 17:44:50 maybe this is quickly getting into overengineering. but we could use some mesh-approved way of broadcasting messages. Feb 19 17:46:11 anyway :) maybe when the sugar devs are here at 1cc we can bring all these ideas up Feb 19 17:46:17 and attempt to get some feedback, figure out what we need Feb 19 17:46:25 a Backup/Restore activity sounds important, too Feb 19 17:46:31 without a school server; backing up many laptops to one USB key Feb 19 17:46:37 --> erikos__ (n=erikos@hlle-4db9bac1.pool.einsundeins.de) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 17:47:14 cjb, for peru: will each school with XOs have a school server? or how does it work? Feb 19 17:47:17 cjb: what scares me is that we invest time in implementing schemes that rely on usb sticks, and that at the end the field doesn't have usb sticks Feb 19 17:47:25 as an example Feb 19 17:47:50 usb sticks are cheap Feb 19 17:48:43 daja77: ok, but will be there? Feb 19 17:49:12 if they are sold with the servers Feb 19 17:49:18 can we expect teachers to buy themselves if the government is not providing them? Feb 19 17:49:18 ChristophD: I think we can guarantee that not all schools in Peru will have a school server Feb 19 17:49:43 i don't know Feb 19 17:49:47 usb sticks will be provided, I think -- Peru's plan for deploying content is to mail out USB sticks with content on Feb 19 17:49:55 again, this is just hearsay for now. Feb 19 17:49:57 cjb: okay, that means we should use some way that doesnt rely on school server software Feb 19 17:50:27 ChristophD: correct. that's what my recent mail to devel@ was about -- if we assume that we don't have a school server or network, what do we change so that people can actually use their laptops? Feb 19 17:51:09 Backup/Restore needing to work offline is the most obvious, I think Feb 19 17:51:18 makes sense Feb 19 17:51:55 cjb: wouldn't need to be very big usb sticks for backup to work? Feb 19 17:52:09 but how are you going to back up x00MB * 50 students per class without a server or a 32GB USB Stick? Feb 19 17:52:37 I'd guess you only back up journal objects, and refuse to back up journal objects bigger than n MB Feb 19 17:52:45 this is the sort of thing we need to think about Feb 19 17:52:53 that may work quite well Feb 19 17:52:55 Mmm Feb 19 17:52:55 --> erikos (n=erikos@hlle-4db9badd.pool.einsundeins.de) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 17:52:55 you could compress, too. Feb 19 17:53:05 but deciding that for the user sucks IMHO Feb 19 17:53:13 yes Feb 19 17:53:13 what if they store their family photos there Feb 19 17:53:22 usb drives Feb 19 17:53:31 so maybe the Backup activity is for being told what your quota is, and choosing the files that you want to fill it with Feb 19 17:53:47 cjb, such an approach makes more sense Feb 19 17:53:56 ChristophD: well, your family photos at 640x480 aren't going to more than n MB for n > 1. Feb 19 17:54:10 can we expect children to take care of their backups? Feb 19 17:54:12 cjb, e.g. all your journal items marked as favourites would be backuped Feb 19 17:54:22 that could work. Feb 19 17:54:51 if making a backup requires a significant amount of work, then perhaps copying entries to usb sticks may work equally well Feb 19 17:54:53 tomeu: I don't really like questions like that Feb 19 17:54:53 tomeu, I think you could make the implicit assumtpion that favourited items are valuable and needed to be backuped no matter what Feb 19 17:54:56 without changes to the existing sw Feb 19 17:55:16 cjb: please explain more Feb 19 17:55:28 can we demand children must take care of their backups? no, of course not. if we make it easy to take backups, will many of them do it and be really happy when it saves their data? absolutely. Feb 19 17:56:18 cjb: I don't think most people prepare to data loss disaster when making backups take a significant amount of effort Feb 19 17:56:23 this is the no school server and no network case -- they're going to find out quickly how much it sucks to lose everything. Feb 19 17:56:28 cjb: most users of computers that I know are like this Feb 19 17:56:53 well, here's a low-effort idea: Feb 19 17:56:58 next to the favorites flag is a "back this up" flag Feb 19 17:57:42 when checked, it copies those files to removable media if there's room, making sure not to use more than a threshold of space in total, and putting a red mark next to the ones it wasn't able to backup for space reasons. Feb 19 17:57:55 so the backup process itself isn't manual Feb 19 17:57:55 it happens whenever sugar notices removable media with enough space Feb 19 17:58:08 but the process of saying what's important to you is manual Feb 19 17:58:17 makes sense Feb 19 17:58:24 I think we have the potential to make a tool that's much easier than traditional backup tools Feb 19 17:58:56 cjb: but the user is asked then like: a medium with enough storage amount is inserted want to backup? Feb 19 17:58:56 but dont you think that having a "favourite" and a "backup" flag is too much hassle? Feb 19 17:59:07 erikos: I don't see why we even need to ask Feb 19 17:59:19 maybe we do Feb 19 17:59:19 what other use does "favourite" have anyway in the journal? Feb 19 17:59:19 ChristophD: sure, I don't have an opinion either way. Feb 19 17:59:29 ChristophD: we aren't using the favourite flag for anything, currently Feb 19 17:59:54 we could have a way for marking removable devices as backup storage Feb 19 17:59:56 favourite means something semantically different from backup, that's all. Feb 19 17:59:56 cjb: well you do not want your data to be present on every medium you insert Feb 19 17:59:56 erikos: agreed Feb 19 18:00:11 erikos: fair enough, though I don't think these schools are going to be flooded with USB disks Feb 19 18:00:11 cjb: and it tells better the story - what happens - for the user to know Feb 19 18:00:13 an option on the palette for the device may write a .backup file on the usb stick Feb 19 18:00:32 *nod* Feb 19 18:00:32 ok. I was just trying to minimize interaction. Feb 19 18:00:33 and when a usb stick marked as this is inserted, the journal can start making the backup Feb 19 18:00:53 cjb: i understand Feb 19 18:01:04 that sounds good Feb 19 18:01:23 oh! great idea. Feb 19 18:01:37 perfect! Feb 19 18:01:44 albert will love the .backup idea Feb 19 18:02:19 now, we'd need a way to restore too Feb 19 18:02:19 since you'll be swamped with jobjects (and some of them won't be yours) if we just copy every jobject to the disk Feb 19 18:02:48 how about this: Feb 19 18:02:48 similar to flashing perhaps Feb 19 18:02:48 it copies jobjects to disk// Feb 19 18:02:48 and restores only from disk// Feb 19 18:03:01 where is the kid's nickname/SN/whatever. Feb 19 18:03:44 we might also need a way to restore in the case of a kid who loses their laptop Feb 19 18:03:44 so it might be good to get the nickname in there somewhere so that the teacher can help with that Feb 19 18:03:44 it would also be a way to hand in homework! Feb 19 18:03:44 well could easy be manipulated Feb 19 18:03:44 they pass a usb key around the class Feb 19 18:03:52 we can also use metadata to distinguish the owner Feb 19 18:04:04 <-- erikos_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 19 18:04:04 and everyone has to backup their homework to do it, and when it's done the teacher has a user-indexed list of homework Feb 19 18:04:04 like the homework idea Feb 19 18:04:21 I don't think we should aim for privacy with this scheme Feb 19 18:04:31 the user should know his work will be public Feb 19 18:04:33 me too Feb 19 18:04:39 so you train the user how to do backups Feb 19 18:04:39 erikos: yup :) Feb 19 18:05:09 kids can maintain secrecy by not ticking the backup flag on jobjects, yeah. Feb 19 18:07:35 Notification plugin unloaded. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 19 18:07:36 2008 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 19 18:07:50 2008 Feb 19 18:07:50 --> You are now talking on #olpc-meeting Feb 19 18:07:50 --- Topic for #olpc-meeting is OLPC (http://laptop.org) meetings Feb 19 18:07:50 --- Topic for #olpc-meeting set by neuralis at Sat Dec 22 05:32:28 2007 Feb 19 18:07:50 --- #olpc-meeting :[freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg Feb 19 18:07:55 crappy connection Feb 19 18:08:10 <-- erikos__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 19 18:08:24 --> erikos_ (n=erikos@hlle-4db9bb4f.pool.einsundeins.de) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 18:09:00 uff no network luck today :/ Feb 19 18:10:02 how does the restoring happen ui wise? Feb 19 18:10:26 perhaps in the journal Feb 19 18:10:29 they click on the usb disk Feb 19 18:10:45 an device that gets inserted which conatins .backup info gets announced as a possible restore Feb 19 18:10:57 or perhaps restoration could be manual? Feb 19 18:11:03 I prefer manual Feb 19 18:11:07 just drag the items to the main journal? Feb 19 18:11:10 nods Feb 19 18:11:11 you click on the usb disk, get to see the jobjects of yours Feb 19 18:11:14 and get to drag, yeah. Feb 19 18:11:28 cjb: why not all the objects? Feb 19 18:11:35 and there could be a restore all button, I suppose Feb 19 18:11:42 or a select all with checkboxes Feb 19 18:11:57 but I don't think it's necessary to interrupt the user with an announcement about the disk being inserted Feb 19 18:12:01 we can just add a button or two Feb 19 18:12:08 in the case of .backup Feb 19 18:12:25 yup add a button is fine with me Feb 19 18:12:42 or a badge on the device maybe Feb 19 18:13:00 of course, this is appropriate for e.g. G1G1 people too Feb 19 18:13:10 I think we have a ticket about massive copies in the journal Feb 19 18:13:13 any non-school server case, or if the school server breaks Feb 19 18:13:18 it's going to be really helpful Feb 19 18:13:36 the problem with the checkboxes is that if the list is big, you cannot really know at any moment what is selected and what not Feb 19 18:13:51 it's not very ergonomic Feb 19 18:14:11 ok, perhaps either we drag individual items, or we click a restore all button that only appears in the .backup case Feb 19 18:14:28 yes that sounds good Feb 19 18:15:11 cjb: eben is not in the office these days, right? Feb 19 18:16:09 cjb: I think for G1G1 users a simple access to SMB shares in their home (just include a small icon just like the SD card one) and a "copy all files to USB stick" solution would be more suitable Feb 19 18:16:21 tomeu_: think I saw him just a few days ago? Feb 19 18:16:39 ChristophD: ok, but we're not going to spend time on such things for them; g1g1 is over. Feb 19 18:17:13 cjb: ACK Feb 19 18:17:16 the USB backup idea has the nice property that it helps the disconnected mesh case that we're worried about for Peru, and helps G1G1 people as a pleasant side-effect Feb 19 18:18:44 ok, we had some nice ideas about backups Feb 19 18:19:41 tomeu: yo mean we are done with this now :) Feb 19 18:20:04 erikos_: we have a perfect plan, don't we? ;) Feb 19 18:20:30 tomeu_: looks like Feb 19 18:20:50 tomeu_: bemasc is not around to discuss the sharing activity Feb 19 18:20:57 as it looks like Feb 19 18:21:25 any other points people want to bring up? Feb 19 18:21:59 cjb: more important pieces you miss in sugar? Feb 19 18:22:34 tomeu_: sugar is too perfect Feb 19 18:23:11 yeah, because of being minimal :p Feb 19 18:24:15 sounds like everyone is happy for now Feb 19 18:24:36 tomeu can you get a log of this meeting - i was connected 3 or 4 times? Feb 19 18:24:39 tomeu_: there's the autoinstallation of content/activities from USB idra Feb 19 18:24:42 idea Feb 19 18:24:48 would you guys like me to write up the backup idea? Feb 19 18:24:50 s/connected/disconnected Feb 19 18:24:59 cjb: would be great if you could Feb 19 18:25:10 k Feb 19 18:25:16 and there's the idea of broadcast messages Feb 19 18:25:17 erikos: yeah, although I lost a bit at some point Feb 19 18:25:25 either from teacher to class or teacher to whole school or so on Feb 19 18:25:32 <-- erikos has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Feb 19 18:25:45 cjb: perfect: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_dev_meeting#Meetings would be nice to add it there than as well the thoughts Feb 19 18:25:53 ok Feb 19 18:26:34 I wanted to mention that I'm working on focus bugs in Sugar / GTK. Kind of a nuts and bolts bug - http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/2045 Feb 19 18:26:47 yeah, if USB sticks are going to be available, then using them as content distribution media makes sense Feb 19 18:27:31 cjb: have you thought how that would work in the UI? Feb 19 18:27:45 (talking now about broadcasted messages) Feb 19 18:28:04 --> homunq (n=chema@216.106.174.111) has joined #olpc-meeting Feb 19 18:28:13 Ridderman: do you think we can do what Eben asks? Feb 19 18:30:31 tomeu_: nope Feb 19 18:30:46 tomeu_: I remember at my high school people used "net send" sometimes Feb 19 18:30:59 which broadcasts a message with a modal dialog. that's kinda clunky, though. Feb 19 18:31:24 tomeu: so far I've been trying to keep focus out of the toolbar, and it looks like there aren't any settings in GTK to do this intuitively. I'm basically capturing the signal before it shifts focus, saving the previously focused widget, emitting the signal, and then restoring focus to the previous widget. so it's kind of a hack Feb 19 18:31:57 cjb: yeah, I guess we can use notifications Feb 19 18:32:18 cjb: we have only a very basic notification kind, for invitations to shared activities Feb 19 18:32:22 cjb: hehe remember netcast myself Feb 19 18:32:26 cjb: we could work some more on that Feb 19 18:32:50 Ridderman: yeah, what eben asks looks a bit weird to implement in gtk :/ Feb 19 18:33:18 Ridderman: I would advise you to talk with marco, he knows quite a bit about gtk internals Feb 19 18:33:45 Ridderman: he won't be much in irc these days, though, as he's traveling Feb 19 18:33:55 Ridderman: so perhaps an email to the sugar ml would be best Feb 19 18:35:42 tomeu_: cool, repurposing invitations as "send a message to", and having a broadcast version, sounds great Feb 19 18:36:07 tomeu: ok, i'll try email. i took a quick look at the gtk source code and realized that modifying gtk would be a very large task. so i've been working on focus shifts that can be fixed with the current gtk version Feb 19 18:36:46 Ridderman: yeah, don't really know what we can do on this in the short term :/ Feb 19 18:36:55 Ridderman: you chose a hard one ;) Feb 19 18:37:18 <-- tomeu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 19 18:37:38 2008 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 19 18:37:48 2008 Feb 19 18:37:48 --> You are now talking on #olpc-meeting Feb 19 18:37:48 --- Topic for #olpc-meeting is OLPC (http://laptop.org) meetings Feb 19 18:37:48 --- Topic for #olpc-meeting set by neuralis at Sat Dec 22 05:32:28 2007 Feb 19 18:38:27 tomeu: yes, at least i'm learning a lot Feb 19 18:38:55 cjb: perhaps usb backups and short messages should have their own tickets owned by Eben? Feb 19 18:39:27 ok Feb 19 18:39:29 cjb: and would be good for the people that think that those are important things, to push for them Feb 19 18:39:34 what is our plan for how to do feature design? Feb 19 18:39:51 cjb: commenting on the ticket and pushing kim, jim or walter to give it priority Feb 19 18:40:00 clearly, a spec should be written; does Eben write the spec, or do we write the spec and then show to Eben, or do we tell Eben we want to write a spec and wait for his input? Feb 19 18:40:10 cjb: well, don't know of it, although I have asked several times since the reorganization Feb 19 18:40:11 that makes sense Feb 19 18:40:18 tomeu: but in your opinion? Feb 19 18:40:24 cjb: hopefully we will sort it out next week Feb 19 18:40:39 yeah that would be good topics Feb 19 18:41:04 cjb: explain the need, propose user experience, prioritize, discuss the implementation, implement Feb 19 18:41:10 cjb: with some iteration in the middle Feb 19 18:41:16 ok Feb 19 18:41:37 things like "but we need to avoid backing up large jobjects" aren't really part of the need Feb 19 18:42:01 or maybe they are. it seems like it's necessary to include some implementation details here. Feb 19 18:42:28 yeah, the iteration goes from the first step to the later, with some smaller loops in the middle Feb 19 18:42:41 at some point, we can split the feature in two or more steps Feb 19 18:42:53 I see that as something like a non-functional requirement Feb 19 18:44:27 cjb: do we keep a backlog of this channel somewhere ? Feb 19 18:44:35 two of the most important points I see are: - the feature needs to be justified by a need from the field, - the solution needs to fit inside the general user experience we want to give Feb 19 18:44:53 erikos_: no Feb 19 18:45:20 cjb: ok Feb 19 18:45:56 we should have cloned eben a long time ago... Feb 19 18:46:15 tomeu: yuo mean now it is to late? Feb 19 18:46:25 s/to/too Feb 19 18:46:25 well, clones take some time to grow Feb 19 18:46:39 hmm this is true Feb 19 18:46:39 but we discussed this almost one year ago Feb 19 18:46:59 we should have taken action then Feb 19 18:47:21 sometimes it is good to take action immediately Feb 19 18:48:08 cjb: did we discuss (at least a bit) most of your points by now ? Feb 19 18:50:01 <_sj|cc_> tomeu: hi Feb 19 18:50:06 yup Feb 19 18:51:02 hi _sj|cc_, do you know of a tool for sync generated docs from source to wiki? Feb 19 18:53:02 good then i thank everyone for their contributions to this meeting; hope we get this to happen on a regularly basis now Feb 19 18:53:36 points we discussed: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_dev_meeting#Meetings Feb 19 18:53:44 some details will follow Feb 19 18:53:52 erikos_: how about a bi-weely schedule? Feb 19 18:54:07 bi-weely? Feb 19 18:54:09 erikos_: your client doesn't keep a log? Feb 19 18:54:31 homunq: i was disconnected several times during the meeting Feb 19 18:55:10 ChristophD: why do you prefer biweekly? Feb 19 18:55:10 I got here very late, I'd like to see what happened. If somebody sends me a full log, I'll put up the minutes. Feb 19 18:55:33 homunq: I'm going to put the full log online Feb 19 18:55:41 tomeu: not sure whether theres enough to discuss every week? Feb 19 18:56:01 tomeu: great, send the url to dev. Feb 19 18:56:28 ChristophD: I prefer to have short meetings, but if people need to make an effort to be in the meeting, then I would understand that Feb 19 18:56:54 homunq: will be here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_dev_meeting#Tuesday_February_19_2008 Feb 19 18:57:20 how do the others feel about regular meetings, how often should we have them? Feb 19 18:58:04 ChristophD: i think every week is good Feb 19 18:58:35 okay, I'll try to join in as often as possible Feb 19 18:58:41 especially for the core devs - to have some sort of guideline Feb 19 18:59:13 I think a compromise would be fine. On weeks and off weeks, and we understand if somebody wants to rehash last week's discussion if it's an on week. Feb 19 19:00:27 is that clear? Feb 19 19:00:59 homunq: how is that? Feb 19 19:01:18 Have the meeting every week, but make it clear that attendance is more important every other week. Feb 19 19:01:18 homunq: what is the issue with every wek Feb 19 19:01:43 Just another thing to schedule, no biggie. Feb 19 19:02:35 we can make it every week for core people and open for broader discussion every second week Feb 19 19:02:47 if this helps? Feb 19 19:02:47 If there are at least two people who'd prefer every other week, it does no harm to have an official policy on which meetings we should attend, so we're in sync Feb 19 19:02:47 exactly. Feb 19 19:03:47 sounds good to me Feb 19 19:04:30